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November 04, 2004

Comments

Joel

Look, I am not a detractor of Teresa Heinz. I dont care what she does or does not do. I was just stating that I can see why people find her "a bitch." I have found some things about her abrasive myself. And to dismiss her actions because she is a woman and should be able to act anyway in which she pleases without regards to being the future first lady is naive.

And to be clear... let me restate. I am not a detractor of T.H.! So, to this comment:

"You and many others are acting like she was personally going to be sitting in the Oval Office with a gavel while John Kerry was tied to her leg painting her toenails."

---I am not acting in that way at all. I found her, at times, offensive and I can also understand why those women (from your original post) were appalled. I didnt find her offensive because she was a woman, and women shouldnt act that way--- I found her offensive because she is an a-hole. Not stong, smart and independant as a woman, but a sour, bitter, and mean a-hole. To wash her behavior away as negative press because she is a woman that isnt demure, is silly.

Playing the victim.

"Playing the victim is highly unattractive. Period. I don't care who you are. I don't believe that I have played the victim here, I don't believe I have portrayed any woman as a victim and I damn sure don't believe THK has or is playing the victim, so really, I am not sure why you made that point at all."

to that=> I reply.

How is this---

"An 'unpleasing' woman is written about furiously in the Washington Post and other media outlets for any moment that isn't perfect, but a Dick Cheney can go so far as to say "Go fuck yourself" on the senate floor and it is forgotten by most the next day."

--not victim mentality...


About the Dude Relax...

"I know men and women are different. I am a bit offended in the way you imply that I somehow managed to not 'get' this when I was a child."

My point was not that you, in particular, dont get it, but rather that society forgets boys and girls are different. And when society forgets that men and women are different and tries to treat them the same, both sexes are going to lose. Because both sexes have stongpoints and weakpoints, viewing them the same is an injustice to both.

To that....

"And yeah, holding half the population to an arbitrary "higher standard" IS an insult. It's incredibly presumptuous -- who says you get to set the standards in the first place? (It's also a nice way to try to protect yourself from strong, smart, independent women if dealing with them makes you uncomfortable.)"

I dont set any standards, and never said I did. I just know what I have witnessed throughout my own life. (Maybe filtered through my own rose colored glasses) But, I have generally seen that women are thought of as more dignified, more civilized and in general held to a higher standard of behavior because of that. How anyone could take that, and consider it an insult is beyond me. If.. "You are better then men, and should act accordingly" is taken as an insult... then something is wrong.

Regarding the light and article..

I couldn't find the original WP article. I think it is in the Post's archives, but doesnt show up on a websearch. Here are some other articles that mention some of the things I mentioned. One of them even mentions the original 2002 WP article by Mark Leibovich.


http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020605teresanat1p1.asp

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49754-2004Oct20.html?nav=rss_politics/elections/2004

http://slate.msn.com/id/2092399/

I am sure that alot more could be found using google and a few key words.


About the baby vessell thing.

I am sure this is a mis-understanding because I tried to compress a thought that would take hours to explain. I was going to pull that out of the post but forgot. I also did a really poor job explaining myself. And, I dont consider women to be baby machines. But I do hold them, along with children, more valuable than your average man. I think this is reflected in society. I dont have case studies to site. I dont have a ton of research to quote. I have heard of some research done by the isreallis where a platoon will destroy itself trying to save the life of a woman, and will just cut its losses with a man.
Either way... I was not trying to get anyone to accept that as fact, just explaining the way I personally feel. How I personally hold women with really high regard. -And not as baby machines. -And not as the weak unable to protect themselves. -But as the embodiment of life and all that is civil in humans.

Alan

Joel, this notion of a woman's "value" being related to her potential as a birthing vessel is overly simplistic and more than a bit weird. I might value cows that way, but I wouldn't even dream of using it as any sort of metric of human worth, even by analogy.

And yeah, holding half the population to an arbitrary "higher standard" IS an insult. It's incredibly presumptuous -- who says you get to set the standards in the first place? (It's also a nice way to try to protect yourself from strong, smart, independent women if dealing with them makes you uncomfortable.)

I won't claim to be an expert, but Teresa Heinz Kerry doesn't strike me as anybody's victim, or as particularly belligerent. Just like anybody else, she has her good days and her bad days. I'm sure being harassed for years by a paper and its reporters would be enough to drive anyone to emit an occasional "shove it" or two.

In the interest of throwing a bit more light and a bit less heat into this discussion, how about posting a link to that WaPo interview that's helped you form your opinion of her?

Lena

Dude, relax. I know men and women are different. I am a bit offended in the way you imply that I somehow managed to not 'get' this when I was a child. Believe it or not, I am quite astute, have friends of both sexes and even came from a family that was comprised of men AND women! Can you believe it?

I know that some tend to hold the different sexes to different standards. Not a problem. What I do find to be a problem is that Teresa Heinz Kerry IS THE WIFE OF A MAN WHO RAN FOR PRESIDENT. You and many others are acting like she was personally going to be sitting in the Oval Office with a gavel while John Kerry was tied to her leg painting her toenails. Which, now that I think of it, is a really great image. But I digress.

Playing the victim is highly unattractive. Period. I don't care who you are. I don't believe that I have played the victim here, I don't believe I have portrayed any woman as a victim and I damn sure don't believe THK has or is playing the victim, so really, I am not sure why you made that point at all.

Feel free to 'splain, Lucy.

joel

Men and women are different. They are different biologically. They are different, to a lesser degree, psycologically. Most children realize this very early on in life.

I believe there is a greater value to females as apposed to males. You can witness this by looking at nature. In heard animals all females will mate, but very few males get the opportunity. Sure some people get confused and say that one male mating with ten females is male biased, but they dont stop to realize that nine other males are not mating. The strongest of the species survives this way. Stop and think about how quickly you could replenish a population with thirty females and three males as apposed to three females and thirty males. Females have greater value.

The holding of women to a higher standard of behavior is a compliment to women. I am sure some women see this as an insult. They see it as the oppresion of women.
But then again... life gets easier when you can play the victim and blame your failings on someone else.

Teresa Hienz isnt a overbearing B_tch, no she is a victim of an oppresive patriarch-driven society that wont let her act like a complete a_shole and still be considered a shinning example of womanhood. She should be able to degrade her husband, insult the press after she makes mistakes, and in general talk-down to people without being held to any standards.

Lena

"One question.... If I was making a point about how I could understand people finding Teresa Heinz unpleasing, then why should I address the point about the V.P."

Hey, alot of people find her unpleasant or not someone they would prefer to hang out with... and that's fine and dandy. The point in my post about her is that she is not held to the same standard as men. An 'unpleasing' woman is written about furiously in the Washington Post and other media outlets for any moment that isn't perfect, but a Dick Cheney can go so far as to say "Go fuck yourself" on the senate floor and it is forgotten by most the next day.

That's what my point was.

Joel

When I made the demographic/naivety comment it was directed at your "why cant women support women" question. I did not make it to be a broad all-encompassing statement.

"Hehehehe, isn't that funny? How many people voted for Bush again?" Well, I voted for Bush. I dont like or support him and think he is flawed. I thought, however, he was less flawed then Kerry.

One question.... If I was making a point about how I could understand people finding Teresa Heinz unpleasing, then why should I address the point about the V.P.?

I think both the P and the VP have done some really sour stuff over the past 4 years. I think this trend will probably continue. I did not support them and still dont. Heck, I would have voted democrat if they would have nominated someone else. I would have voted for Edwards. I would have voted for H. R. Clinton. But Kerry... for he did after Veitnam... No way!

Lena

"But, supporting someone just because they meet one demographic without regard to their character is naivety."

Hehehehe, isn't that funny? How many people voted for Bush again?

Seriously, though. I find it interesting that in your response you didn't respond to the Dick Cheney comment. Even if women support other women, etc... we still face more ridicule and titles (such as 'bitch'), when a man can say "Go Fuck Yourself" with little repercussion. AND HE'S THE VICE PRESIDENT. AND SAID IT IN OFFICE.

joel

I can understand why people are turned off by Teresa Heinz.

I have seen the articles where she says "husband" in refering to the dead Heinz and dismisses John Kerry. One article in particular, an interview with the Washington Post, she lambasts John Kerry for having Vietnam flashbacks while he is asleep. She said he would wake up crying or start to throttle her while he was dreaming. She didnt take his last name until the election process started. She is mouthy and rude.

I am not saying a person should vote according to the worthiness of the proposed first lady. I am also not saying anything in favor or Laura Bush. I am, however, saying that I can see how people would look at this Teresa Heinz and see someone unfavorable, unsavory, and "a bitch."


"What is wrong with women today? Why are we so afraid of powerful women?"

The world is not afraid of powerfull women. The world doesnt like belligerence though! Which may be why Teresa was called a bitch.

"Why can't women support other women?"

Women do support other women. But, supporting someone just because they meet one demographic without regard to their character is naivety.

mrs mcmuffin

You'd think other womwn would be delighted to see one of thier 'sisters' doing do well, but no, they get envious and nasty. Thankfully we're not all like that.

Jim

I'm with you on this one. It's so hard living in South and having to constantly wonder what the hell most of these people must be thinking. Are they that stupid or am I that out of touch? I looked at the Alabama exit polls and saw that only 18% of white males in AL voted for Kerry and the women didn't do much better...and they wonder why I moved away. By the way, youre banner no longer loads in either of my browsers, it's just a big blank space. It doesn't show up in Explorer or Firefox and it hasn't for a long while. You may know that but I wanted to let you know just in case. It really made your site so I hope that you can bring it back.

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